Tuesday, 18 September 2012

Collaborating Writing


    
Been almost a week since I last wrote, but I've been ill and busy. I've had lots of ideas for posts though and today I've picked to write about collaborating writing. This is due to the fact that I'm currently embarking on this myself with my boyfriend. So, I thought it would make an interesting post and get me in the mood to write some more. Also it's about time I had a post on writing too! My last few ones have been focusing on my life and D&D. Which is understandable, since I've not been doing much writing since finishing my Diss. I hope that's about to change now.

There are lots of different ways for writers to collaborate on writing. Too many to get into here, so I'm just going to talk about the main ways. It's possible to see when work has been collaborated on as two authors names will appear on the front cover. This can get you wondering about how and why they decided to join forces. I like the idea of the manuscript being passed around and the writers each adding a chapter or changing things until it becomes a whole, but that sounds like a long process and could led to disagreements or unevenness appearing in different areas of the works. However, writers both doing some of the writing is common enough, though they probably take half the chapters each to achieve this.

One of the simple ways to collaborate is for the first writer to have the idea and the second writer to write it. This is what my boyfriend and I are currently doing. He came up with the basic plot and characters for a Darren Shan styled story and I am busy expending on his ideas and trying to write it. It's proving a bit tricky because teenage novels are not my normal area-though they were when I first started writing-so it's getting back into that mind set. This way does work well though, though all the work is left up to the second writer and the first comes up with most of the ideas. The first write may also do some editing as well and that can be mega useful to allow the writers to discuss things further.

Another way to collaborate is something I've been doing for the last 3 years with my friends and that was having them suggest ideas/events that could then appear in the writing. They also wrote the backgrounds for many of the characters and though most of this work didn't appear in the finished novel it was still important to know. Having them read and edit the novel also helped, though they didn't really do any of the writing. That was all down to me. This way works more if there is only one actually writer in the group and the others are just there to listen to ideas of to help redraft.

It's not just novels and short stories that writers can work on together. Lots of TV and film scripts can have joint or secondary writers. Series writers (Normally there's more then two writers and they sometimes can have guess writers too) also take it in turns to write different episodes, something that can be very noticeable- take Dr Who for example- sometimes, but this generally doesn't effect the main characters or plot of the story. Series writers also have to work closer together to make sure that things are considered throughout and that the running background plot stays the same. This is a great way to work though as it gives each writer a chance to put different ideas out there and create spins on events that other writers might not have thought about. It's also good for the audience as they get to experience a slightly different view or story that keeps them interested in the show.

Film scripts are less collaborated on than TV ones and when they make books into movies nearly 99% of the time a different writer will write the film script. There's a whole list of reasons why this happens. Sometimes the book writer might have some influence or get ask how they'd like some represented but normally what you see in a movie is the scriptwriter's and the director's verison of things. Writing a script is actually easier then writing a novel, it types up a lot faster and needs less imagination to create. However, none of my ideas have really been suited to this formatting.

So, why do writers join together? Yeah, they can just write their own ideas and things, but sometimes it's fun to work on projects with others and other writers can bring certain things to the work that might not have happened otherwise. Of course working with someone can have it's problems. Everyone views the world different and no one really has the same ideas. It goes for readers too. Everyone has a different vision of Harry Potter or Frodo Baggins in their heads. So, how does a writer go about turning someone else idea into a novel without going off track and making it their own? It can be almost impossible to do this! But collaborating is just that, people getting together and creating something they can agree on. Luckily enough I'm actually working with another writer though he does scripts, but because of that he understands that I'm going to put my own spin on things and the visions in my head are going to be slightly different from his. This is an experiment though and we are both keen to see what's going to happen.

 

Friday, 7 September 2012

D&D 2: Attack!




Hey readers, this is a bit of a late post this time, but I've been ill and not much in a writing mood. Feeling a bit better now though, so here's my report on my second D&D encounter.

There was less people playing this time, so we were in two groups of five and four. I didn't have my boyfriend at my side either, so I was more in control. I didn't mind him helping me last week, it's great to have that support during the first game, but you can only truly learn how to do something when you take full control over it. So, it was this time around, which I'm fine with as it give me a chance to actually play my character. I still let the other players and the DM make the choices for me though! Listening to their suggests was very useful as you learn what your character can do and can't do and those kind of actions aren't really written down on the sheet.

I'm still struggling with the rules and the maths and I know I'm being a bit slow on the uptake of the game, but the DMs are really nice and supportive, they allow you to find your own feet and just learn at your own pace, whilst giving advice and suggestions. I know that beside from the main rules, I'm going to struggle to remember all the side ones and for me the maths is never going to stick. I've always been bad with numbers, but luckily the game doesn't deal with very high numbers, its just the fast adding up and taking away that's the main usage. All of this just comes with time and practise.

The encounter this time picked up from where we had left it- as they all do-with us entering a chamber and being attack. It was a tough battle as we had to deal with a range of goblin like related creatures, who believed we had come to in slave them. That wasn't true, but as we didn't speak goblin language and they were in full fight mode, it was impossible not to engage with them. By the Hand of Fate, I was the first to go and started attacking the goblins. I really wanted to move and stand behind the others though! My character is a rouge and not really built for fighting. She's good at being sneaky, setting and discovering traps, stealing etc. However, I didn't have much of a choice and decided it was kill or be killed! So I tried to fight the first monster and nearly died for my troubles.

Luckily, we had two healers, who were also good fighters as well as another two fighting heroes as well, so I got saved from dying twice because they were able to heal me and get my hit points up. I did get my revenge on the monsters and took out about three of them, first with my sword, then with a trip, then with a bow. I ended up deciding to move back and be out of the way because I was on the edge of dying. But, I couldn't let the rest of my group face off the monsters, so I got my bow out, which meant I lost a move on dropping my shield and putting my sword away, but it was worth doing so really as the fight moved too far away from me to jump back into it. To save having to waste another move on putting my shield away, it was suggested that I use my athletics to kick my shield across the floor as I moved. It was a funny statement, but I decided to try it out-twice. I rolled high enough both times to kick my shield with style and make it stay at my feet so I didn't loss it. I think it's those random little moments that can bring some fun to the heat of a battle.


We were also luckily enough to hear reports from the other table and we quickly learnt that they were fairing badly. At the end of the battle we learnt that all the heroes had died but one. They had no healers and hadn't been on full hit points at the start. The battle had been too much for them. Hit points can go into minus numbers and then you have three rolls to escape death and you can also use surges to heal, but only at certain points-like rest stages-The only survivor had turned out to be a goblin slave and he'd found another goblin hiding and they had run away together. It was me that spotted the same hidden goblin in my game and well after some hard questions one of the other heroes killed him by shaking him. My boyfriend's hero had been amongst the dead so girlfriend hugs and kisses were in high demand when we had finished. He can build a new character now and has since made one which is a very great fighting machine- they call them tanks- as he's determined not to die again. I was surprised that I survived actually!

So, I'm still loving playing D&D and supporting women gamers. I'm really hoping I'll be okay for next week now, just need to get over this illness.


Images from;

http://www.netjunkz.com/anime-cartoon-wallpapers/wallpaper-of-faerie-dragon/

http://www.fancydressball.co.uk/accessories/swords-knives-and-axes/crusader-sword-and-shield-60318.htm

Sunday, 2 September 2012

A Planned Out Week




Hey readers,

Today is the first day of a new week and whilst today has been calm, the rest of the week is looking a little crazy. Sunday should be a day of rest or a day for the wicked, as the sayings go! I've been tidying the kitchen this afternoon and discovering the 'forgot' biology experiments my mum loves to keep her cupboards and draws....very icky. I also helped cook Sunday tea, we had gammon which was pretty tasty and I made brownies too.

I've also been gathering photos for my scrapbook. Last year, I finished my first ever scrapbook. It was on my first year at uni and contained lots of fun photos as well as a lot of memories. My mum inspired me by creating a scrapbook about my life and giving it to me as an 18th birthday presents. They make really great presents, tho need a lot of time and creativity. There's a cheat way though that involves designing your own scrapbook on line and having it bound and printed like a real book. I've done two of these now. One as a going away present for a uni friend and the other for myself. It really is a great way to display photos. However, creating your own does have a more satisfying pay off.

My next scrapbook is going to be about my other three years at uni and I've almost gathered all the photos. It was a difficult choice to decided which photos to put in though, because I've so many and not enough pages! I'm exciting to be starting another scrapbook though, it does help to pass the time and it can be so relaxing. plus all the photos bring back so many memories. I think that preserving photos in this way is mega good. Generations can look through them and have a much clearer understanding of the happenings and the people. Lastly, its another creative outlet!

Monday is going to be good. I'm handling in my diss and catching up with two friends, one I've not seen in ages too! I'm not worried about handing my diss in because I'm very proud of it. I worked hard and it turned out good. People still think I'm crazy when I tell them in May I scraped the 25,000 words I'd wrote and started it again. It only had to be 15,000. But I was very unhappy with the plot, the characters and the way it was written. I'd spend the two months before trying to fix all the problems, but had no luck. The only way I could sort it was to scrap it all and start again, which I'm happy to say worked and now after the last few months it's finally over. Come December when I graduate my time as a student will also be over. I'm going to miss it a lot. I'm also going to the new museum in Liverpool too after handing in my diss. So that should be good.


Diss ready to hand in!
 

On Tuesday evening I'm off for a job interview and to have tea with another friend I've not seen in ages. The job is an interesting one and not what I actually want to do. But, the money is good and well, everyone has to start some place and right now so many people want jobs that you have to take what is given to you. So, wish me look for that! Wednesday its D&D night! Time to fight some more monsters and carry on with the quest. Looking forward to that one. Thursday morning I'm off to a hospital appointment and then that's it. Nothing else has been booked in, but no doubt something will turn up. It always does!

So for the rest of the night I plan to watch Indian Jones and The Temple of Doom and talk to my boyfriend. My life is going good at the moment.



Wednesday, 29 August 2012

Dungeons and Dragons- This Is How We Roll (Part 1)


 


Hi readers,

I'm just back from playing Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and thought I'd share my experience. This wasn't actually my first time at playing the role playing (RP) board game. A few years back for Christmas my family got a box game of it with everything already set up and the rules made simpler. This game came with us on holiday, mostly camping or the narrow boat because it's actually a great way to pass a good few hours whilst its raining or you've broke down etc. This was my first introduction to D&D and I enjoyed playing it because it was fantasy and adventures and something completely different to tradition/normal board games, which like most families we've been through them all.

My second encounter with D&D was with my ex and two of his friends some months back. We played at his house and did a small, self-contained game. This involved a lot more RP then the box game of course, but those guys really got into the spirit of the game. As for me, I struggled on the complexity of dealing with all the rules and numbers. I've always been bad with numbers and remembering things. However, I did like it and was keen to learn and play again. Then when we broke up I told myself that I wasn't going to let that stop me from having another bash at D&D. I was still interested in it, but I just needed to find someone to teach me.

Luckily, less then 2 months after the break up I met someone else and it was actually because of D&D that we got talking. We've been together 3 weeks now and today was our 5th date. I guess nearly all girls would never concerned going to play D&D on a date. But it's becoming very noticeable to me that I have a nerd side which needs to be embraced. I class myself as a secret nerd, because I'm still unwilling- as of yet!- to admit it fully. So, this evening I had another go at playing D&D and this time it was in a Manchester shop which supports such games and others of course. People gather to learn how to play all kinds of things there, which I think is really good because sometimes you can get one of these RP or fantasy games home and not have a clue what to do with it! This evening we got told that all over the world people were sitting down to play the same adventure that we were about to go on because that's the way these massive things work. (Yeah, I'm still trying to get the hang of it all, just bare with me.)



(D&D dice- more covered in numbers then your normal dice....)
 
I'm so not going into the whole this is how you play D&D and make characters and stuff like that. There's lots of websites with that information on and frankly I'm still a newbie at this. Here's the official D&D site if you want to check it out - http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Default.aspx . Also, I decided that I'm not going into the whole story and background that we are currently playing because and though I'm not confused by it, I'd rather not spoil it for people. But I shall do a little bit about the interesting events that happened in our game and my experiences of becoming a D&D player. 
 
Firstly, for the people who don't know what D&D is about and are busy wondering what's going on. D&D is actually all about telling stories. The players choice characters/heroes and the Dungeon Master (DM) who is in control of telling the story also has control of the enemies/monsters and is there to guide the heroes through the story. The game is played on a board which represents the area of the world that the heroes are currently in. There are so many different areas and so many boards!
 
The players have character sheets which have lots of information in both word and number form printed/written on them. This is each heroes stats and has normal stuff like; their name, race and language(s) spoken. There is also weapons,other items, equipment and treasure/money. A range of different skills can be picked and these are mostly chosen on the race of the character. There's things like; heal, thievery, nature, stealth, athletics and perception. Skills are useful for a large number of things like stealth would be used to sneak up on enemies
 
The main last point is about fighting. Heroes have to fight lots of different monsters, it's not just dragons all the time as the name suggests! There's a whole range of stuff from wild animals to supernatural to goblins to harpies. The health of heroes is measured in hit points and this are effected when damaged (in any number of ways) happens. For attacks there are a few things that can be done and it's actually not as simple as drawing a sword and attacking said monster....though I guess you could do that...My character can choose to do tricks to aid in the fight like knocking a monster on to its back or setting a trap, before attacking. You also get experience points too and can level up. The goal of the game is to complete the adventure and get the rewards.        
 



(A game in action)
 
 
The adventure we started this evening was all about the Drow race  and their quest. The Drow are dark elves and therefore evil. There's an awesome website my boyfriend showed me which has lots of information about them and also about D&D. http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/MyDrow.html . I see no real need to go into this because you can just read about it all there. For the first part of our adventure we had to fight off some strange creatures. If the DM said their names I don't actually recall them. My boyfriend attacked the first one and got pinned to a wall and no one was able to get him down until close to the end. It was rather funny, though his hero almost died when someone did kill the monster and he fell to the floor. I almost died too, because I had to fight this ooze monster which poisoned me and I just couldn't get away in time. However, we both made it through and our heroes can carry on next week. In the end we did mange to kill all the monsters and move on into the next room and to the next bit of the story. Then it was home time. You play a chapter of the story once a week for between 6/8-14 weeks. We are playing 8 weeks.

I was really worried about playing D&D this evening. I felt the same the first time I really played it as I was scared I'd mess up or look like a fool in front of the others for not knowing how to play. I felt that again this time, though I was pretty much in the same boat as everyone else, as it was their first time and no one knew how to play. But my other fear was that I might have been the only girl there. Kismetrose has a great article/essay about being a woman and playing D&D. http://www.kismetrose.com/dnd/Women.html There were two other women there, so it was that bad, but it's just so rare they have girls in shops like the one I was in. Games like these have never really been seen as women's games and men have dominated playing them. Maybe it's because there's a level of immaturity in playing them and men are better connect to their inner child then women? There's also a level of escapism which seems to appeal more to men. I love escapism, I do it in my writing all the time. On reflection, I can't really explain my nerd side or why I enjoy such related things. I've never been a typical woman though and perhaps that has something to do with it?

Anyway, I'm please to say that I did like D&D and I plan to go back next week and carry on playing. It might be a hard game to understand, but it's easy enough to play. Also the social atmosphere was good in the shop and I wasn't treated like I shouldn't have been there or made to feel silly because I didn't know what to do. And as you might have noticed in the title of this post I added the (Part 1) because I strongly believe I shall be writing about D&D again, though if I decided to write every week about it or just to start that way and then just add the events into different posts, is still to be decided.

Finally, if you've read through all of this and decided that playing D&D might be for you then go and check out the official website and find a game near you. Also girls don't be scared to embrace you nerd/geeky sides! Though beware that interesting things can happen when you do....

 

Photos from:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dungeons-and-Dragons-Dice-D-D-Dice-Set-Purple-Steel-/190541147414

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dungeons_and_Dragons_game.jpg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drow-Underdark-Supplement-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786941510/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1346280662&sr=1-1

http://comicsforge.com/2012/01/dungeons-and-dragons-1-2010/


(Ps. for whatever reason Blogger.com doesn't accept the 'and' sign symbol. So I had to go back through this and take them all out before publishing and that's why Dungeons and Dragons became DD.)
 

Tuesday, 28 August 2012

Self-publishing - 100 post!



Hi readers,

I've published my first self-published short story today and it'd be great if you could support me. 'Dead Nick' is available for download to Kindle at https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0092RGDJO It's a short story about an office worker who starts hearing a voice in his head. I wrote it for an essay at uni and have rewritten it slightly for publishing. This is one of the short stories I've actually tried to get published in a magazine and on line but it was rejected for 'not being what they were looking for at the time.' Which is what happens to many stories entered to such places or even to actually publishing houses.

I was motive by my boyfriend to try self-publishing, though my parents have been going on about it for awhile. During my BA and MA self-publishing had mixed reviews from my tutors and visiting writers. Most thought it was actually a good thing to do and a way to get yourself out there. Some frowned upon it though and didn't recommended self-publishing if you want to become a professional writer. It's a problematic question for many writers trying get on the publishing ladder. Do they spend ages looking for the right place to send their work, packet/email sections with cover letters and wait for rejection replies? Or do they take the easy way out and self-publish? I don't think they'll ever be a clear answer to that question.

The traditional ways of writing and publishing have really changed in the last twenty plus years. The internet has helped a great deal with that and authors who wouldn't have got a chance are now becoming popular because their work is more easy to access. Authors are also getting headhunted through their self-publishing online and their work is then being made into books, TV shows and movies. There's so many examples of this and it's growing all the time. Take the recent popularity of the Fifty Shades of Grey trilogy. That started as self-published fan fiction and was then rewritten into a self-published novel. The way people read has also changed so much due to the new technologies of kindles, ipads etc. People are now finding it easy to read and access books, magazines and the news from these devices. Still though the actual book is very much alive. Finding a replacement for the book format is hard and frankly not needed. This reminds me of Jasper FFords Thursday Next series. A very awesome and mind blowing series all about life in-between the pages of books.


 The reason why I choice to self-publish though is because I'm at a cross roads in my life again. I'm not sure what I want to do now. I know my dream, but it feels far away and none of my novels are ready-in my view-to be published. Though sending off a few sample chapters is always something I can do. Right now my mind seems to be saying "get a job, get some experience of adult life and think about what you really want to do next." Well, that might be just around the corner as I've an before interview meeting tomorrow in a call centre. (More on that later) I think I'm self-publishing as an experiment, to see if it would actually work for me and what other opportunities it would generate for me. I do feel proud of myself right now for actually doing it. Feels like a big step in the right direction.

I guess if things seem to be going well, I'll start publishing some more short stories and wait to see what happens. I'm not really doing it for the money, though right now I'm really in needed of some!- one of the reasons why I'm currently looking at having ads on my blog. The big question will be if I decided to self-publish a novel and right now I'm slightly against this as I'd like to try and get it published the tradditional way first, but we shall see.

I choice to self-publish online because it's free and faster then going to a company and getting them to do it. I also decided that though having a physical cope of my book, though it's only a short story, would be good, it was properly a bad move at this stage to make. I'd have no idea what I'd have done with say 50 copies of my story to then try and sell myself, nor would having it on a website that printed on demand work. So by going through Amazon, a very well know company all over the world, felt the right thing to do. If self-publishing is the right move for me though is another thing and only time will tell on that one.

Lastly, it's your final chance to get involved in the selection of next year's books for World Book Night. http://www.worldbooknight.org/ There's a hundred titles to choice from or you can pick your own. WBN is something I've been supporting for the last two years and I've been a book giver both times now. It's worth becoming a part of if you love books and want them to reach more people. So, vote for your favourites right now.





 

Sunday, 26 August 2012

On The Job Hunt

 
 
So, today I finished my dissertation and one week tomorrow I'll be handing it in. I'm really excited to have finished it now, but also a little sad because it now means that I've nothing else to do and I'll have to face up to the true adult world and get myself a job. The step up from student-hood isn't going to be easy, but I know it's going to be just as exciting and fun, if I stay positive.
 
Problem is I know how hard it is to find a job, let alone your dream job! I spent the 6 months in between finishing my BA and starting my MA looking for one and had only rejection replies or heard nothing at all. Now, I face being back on that pile and stuck like most people in the vicious circle of being out of work, not finding anything, getting depressed, giving up, living off the dole, deciding to give it one more shot, still finding nothing and still being out of work.
 
I watch the news and know that there's so little movement in the job market, that employers are only taken the best of the best, that now because they receive three times the number of applicants that they can offered to be so fussy in their choosing. Also people are not actually moving up or out of their current jobs, due to the lack of new jobs and people getting promoted. This means that there is hardly any openings and when a new job appears its a bit like a gold rush- everyone applying, but only some getting the reward (interview and job)- I know not a lot can be done about this issue and it's all to do with the economy and money. Things that when you are young don't bother you so much.
 
 I think people fresh out of uni with a BA or MA are very employable. Perhaps we lack on experience, but we are very determined, easy to train, brighten up places, have new ideas and can bring so much into a work place that maybe an older person can't. Like I said though, employers can now be so picky and it's hard work making yourself stand out all the time. How else though can you get seen in a crowd of similar people?
 
When I write my CV I think of all the things I've already accomplished in life. My eduction doing an MA, getting a 2.1 in my BA, my A-levels, animal care, GCSEs. Years of eduction and hard work trying to prove that I can do things. My working as a student ambassador, guide and blogger, all those countless hours working at UCAS and HE fairs, open days, applicant days, school visits, writing posts about uni life and what I've been up to. Also volunteering in a charity shop for the last two years. My work experience, how I've over come difficult problems in dealing with people or having to do lots of things at once, working as a team and being a leader when called for, problem solving when I've to. My skills and hobbies, Writing- novels, short stories, poems, blogs, diaries, reading everything I can, editing, crafting, computers, being creative, gardening, cooking, pets, socialising, music, movies, history, nerd and dark things.
 
It's surprising once written down, how much has happened and been achieved in life.
 
 
 
My dream job would be to become a full time novelist and be earning lots of money to live well. That's a long, hard road and often full of disappointment, emptiness and loss of ones self before anything is truly accomplished. On reflection many writers wonder why they go down this road and a few give up even before they have fully started or after a few years. Most earn enough to become stable, but take on other jobs like teaching and editing to earn more, whilst the lucky few get to become famous and make thousands. I've never imaged myself in the lucky category, I think of myself has being almost the most. All I've ever wanted from my writing has been to share it with the world and for people to receive the same joy reading it as I've got out writing it. I've seen the money as a bonus, but not a way to survive.
 
Issue is I find myself questioning what else can I do. Writing is me, my life and world, without writing I feel like nothing. For whatever reason I feel that my place on the planet is to write and share stories, inspire others and perhaps make someone else's world that little bit more special. Yes, I've lots of skills I can apply to other jobs with and maybe I'd make a good teacher or manger, but no matter what I do, writing shall always be a large part of me. With that I guess I better go and start the job hunt. 


Thursday, 23 August 2012

Reflection

Hey, been ages since I last wrote. I've been super busy, mainly writing and doing my Masters in Creative Writing. There's a few other exciting things that have happened too. Now that I've got some more time on my hands I plan to get back to writing this blog. I don't plan to do a whole load of 'catch up posts' because far too much has happened, though there are somethings that could do with being talked about.

I'm due to hand in my dissertation for my masters in two weeks. I've done it just need the cover page when I find my booklet. It's been a really hard task for the last 6 months, but finally my 17,000 words is done and I'm happy that it's finally over. It'll be even better when I hand it in! Of course then there's the whole what happens now issue. My plan is to have some down time, enjoy life for a bit and read/write things I want to. This also means that I can have time to now think about what I want to do.

I think the second major piece of recent news is my new boyfriend. He has an awesome web show about wecomics and movie reviews. Though it's still newish it's gaining an audience. So here's the link; http://blip.tv/tyas I'll be writing a bit more about him later, I think.

Actually, there is another reason why I decided to start writing this blog again and that is the sad news that my brother's girlfriend's dog has died. It was a sudden passing and it has got me reflecting on the loss of my Sandy. My own dog for 12 years, who was with me at the lowest point of my life and saw me through some bad and difficult times. I was thinking about how difficult it was to replace and fill the hole that dogs leave behind. They become like an actually person member of the family and losing them is just as hard. It's a part of life though and something that has to happen to everything.

On a different and more happier note, I've be come addicted to Minecraft. I blame the boyfriend for this! But also my nerd side which has been growing lately. I'm really liking building and crafting things, exploring the area and chasing the animals. Though losing my house has become the frustration of the game. Though, we've now got a pathway of lights which is proving the solution to this problem. However, the creepers are now starting to bug me....